Kris sits down with author, model, muse & Beatle employee Jenny Boyd.
Liner Notes:
Kris is honored to welcome her guest, music muse and Beatle ally, Jenny Boyd.
"Just be yourself." These were the worlds of George Harrison to his then sister-in-law, Jenny Boyd. And while the model turned rock wife, followed his advice, she had a rough go of it along the way. From being chased by Beatles fans enraged that she had access, to the Beatles' fateful trip to India; from San Francisco's peace-loving streets to the drug-fueled parties of the 70s and finally to her own path, Jenny's story is riveting, sad and wildly exciting. Join us for stories of her travels and observations of some of the most memorable moments in music history as they appear in her new memoire, Jennifer Juniper, a Journey Beyond the Muse.
Jenny's book is available in paperback and Kindle edition.
Visit Jenny on The Web or follow her on Socials:
Instagram @jenny_boydlevitt - Facebook @JenniferJuniperauthor
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Special Thanks to Matthew Smith and Sharon Kosach for contributing to this make this track possible. Original music by Mike Bowman.
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About the Podcast:
‘TEXT PROSE AND ROCK N ROLL’- is the only podcast dedicated to the written account of musicians. From artist memoirs to band bios, and anything in between. You'll hear first accounts from those who lived the lifestyle; a Book Club that rocks - literally.
It was Created, Hosted & Executive Produced by Kris Kosach.
It was Produced & Edited by Charlene Goto of Go-To Productions.
For more on the show, visit the website.
Follow Kris on Social Media: @KrisKosach
Follow Producer Char on Social Media: @ProducerChar
UNEDITED FROM ORIGINAL:
Y20-D0420 - TPR - Jenny Boyd - INTV - EDIT1
[00:00:00] Kris Kosach: [00:00:00] Circles and the circle of life is a very common theme. In your book, you talk about the time you had this epiphany that, uh, life is a circle and everything you learned in Eastern philosophy with life coming full circle. And I wanted to ask you this, you begin the book with a quote by your then brother-in-law.
George Harrison, where he said, just be yourself, and I want to get to the meat of the book shortly. But in the very, very end of the book, you come back to that you found yourself. You are yourself. You're just being yourself. It comes full circle. And my question is, uh, was that intentional in the book?
Jenny Boyd: [00:00:45] No, no, it wasn't.
Um, my, I've always known and remembered George saying those very words to me because when I was writing the chapter about India and, um. [00:01:00] When we drove back from bang Bangor, where we'd gone in Wales to have a, um, be initiated and get our mattress. And that's when he says it, when I'm just about to get out of the car.
Would you like to come to India? Well, the thing is, I'd always, I'd had this dream of India ever since I'd had my own, what I call a spiritual awakening. And, um. To, to be asked to go to India and with them not to the going just by myself. When I got older kind of thing. Um, it was too much and I kept, all I could say was, how can I ever thank you?
And he said, just be yourself. And I always remembered that because it was. So powerful in many ways in the fact that you know, that very moment when I find out you're being given the greatest gift, you're going to be given the greatest gift you've ever wanted. And that was to go to India. So it wasn't an, I'd actually pretty much finish the book then.
And I have found my voice [00:02:00] and realizing that what I can say to everybody, and I say to myself. The thing that we can do is just be ourselves. And I think it's similar what I'd written this book about musicians in the creative process before that, you know, it's not any rock and roll. And it's funny because I was thinking the other day.
I'm saying exactly the same things. It's about listening to that. Still voice within.
Kris Kosach: [00:02:26] That's interesting. Um, you know, I, I spoke to my sister last night and I, I ran a couple of questions faster and I said, do I tell her that. George Harrison was my favorite Beatle, and she said, um, she said, it doesn't matter, but the truth is that he really was.
And for the same reasons that you're mentioning, he's just most soulful, in my opinion. He was the most soulful of them all. And your book is very soulful and very grounded. I found, um, throughout [00:03:00] however there. There's a lot of color as well. So, um, I think we should, let's talk about, uh, uh, the Beatles and Beatlemania and experiencing that because, wow.
What a time in history that you saw firsthand, uh, from the inside out, and yet as an observer, as you say, tell me what that experience was like being inside the circle of beating Beatlemania.
Jenny Boyd: [00:03:27] Well, it's funny because I was very young. I was still very young then. So you know, when I first met George, I think I must've been about 15 or 16 but.
I was very aware of being in the center of that crazy Beatlemania when we got on the train at Euston station to go to Bangor and there was so many, there was just so many crowds and crowds of these kids or screaming and we were trying to make our way through to get on the train. I was very conscious of it then and.
[00:04:00] Also our rusty, when we arrived in Banga, um, all, all the kids and all the people doing exactly the same thing. And it didn't affect me in as much as like, Oh, this is fun, or anything like that. It was much more just keep walking and we just got to get from a to B. And that's what it felt like, because I could feel the mass of hysteria and the crowds.
And, um, and so it was that w it wasn't thinking, well, this is, you know, really amazing. Um, but when we were in India, of course there wasn't, that wasn't there. And so they could just be themselves as individuals. And because we had our own bungalow, um, which was, you know, different rooms, it was all one, one level.
And, um, we had that to ourselves. And so when I'd sit on the roof. With George and Paul and John, and they had their [00:05:00] guitars and singing and making up songs. It was, um, I, I didn't want to interrupt because they were, you just get the feeling that when they were together, they were so linked in and they would be in creative and they were doing their stuff.
And so it all like feeling very peaceful and in a way, really honored as I would any lot of. Pete people who are being creative or musicians doing that thing. It's not me just listening and being an observer and maybe, you know, painting your hands with Hannah or doing whatever you do, just sitting there in the sun.
So there was, wasn't that feeling of, I'm with the Beatles,
Kris Kosach: [00:05:47] right? You were just with a group of people. And growing. Um, when you talk in the book about the Maharaji and you had questions about him, you were a little [00:06:00] skeptical. You're not the only one. Uh, and. Also at this time, things got a little strange and, uh, everyone kind of went their own way.
Do you, do you think, uh, because Brian Epstein died on the Eve before you all went to India and the Maharaj, she suggested that they do not grieve, but they rather just let it go. In other words, in a way, cite, uh, stifle your feelings. Do you think that. This could have been partly responsible for the Beatles breaking up the fact that they were all kind of going on their own spiritual paths and away from each other.
Jenny Boyd: [00:06:39] What I think, um, we actually went to India probably like two, three to three months after we got our mantra. So they had time to be doing their meditation. But, um, but also I agree with you that when he was told, don't, you know, [00:07:00] don't grieve, just, um, you know, be happy for him. And my heart just went out to them because, you know, how can one not, and I'm sure in their own ways they did, you couldn't help it.
But my feeling is when we roll in India. And they had Maharishi as their guru and um, and he was just everything. And he obviously filled that empty hole that Brian had left behind. That is my feeling. And so when Maharishi turned out to be not who they thought he was, and they, there was a huge feeling of betrayal.
And my feeling was that at that time. That suddenly that empty hole or maybe its own reflection, maybe that empty hole of Brian not being there. Maybe that became more apparent when this person who had taken his place was just not, they couldn't trust him. [00:08:00] And I, I don't know where it was the beginning of the end, but I think possibly it was because suddenly they were individuals.
They weren't the Beatles. And especially in India, they weren't the Beatles. They were their individual selves. Um, so maybe, and, but also I wonder whether it's part of evolution. It's part of, as you get older, things that used to be. Great. When you were a little bit younger, you grow out and you find who you are and maybe that all happened at the same time.
A combination of all those things,
Kris Kosach: [00:08:37] right? This is slightly touchy, but is it true that you are with Cynthia Lennon when she walked in on John and Yoko.
Jenny Boyd: [00:08:47] Yeah, yeah, we'd been, I've been with Cynthia because Cynthia and I partied a lot together when we were in India. And I knew that things were a little bit difficult with John and you know, she wasn't feeling as [00:09:00] connected.
And, um. This, maybe I didn't think she had any kind of sense of anything going on, but she was aware that it wasn't how it should be. And so when she heard that had been to Greece with Donovan and, um, magic Alec, she asked if she could come along too. And she asked John and John said he thought it was a great idea.
So she came with us. But when we took her home, when Alex and I drove her home, came into the house. That's where John and Yoko and I, it was shocking, but also, what do you do? You know? And so Neil came up to just left the house because next thing was that we were in the kitchen and John was on this chaise long, you know, like a little stupid thing with his feet top and the M and, um, you know.
With the bare feet. And I was standing quite near him [00:10:00] there. And even though there was this terrible silence in the room, in the kitchen, he was like a naughty boy who had been caught out by his mother, kind of feeding you, wiggled his toes and saying, hello, Jenny, you know, in a squeaky voice. So it was just like, he was like being very childlike and that's it, as if he'd been pulled out.
But. You didn't, there was no feeling of remorse in any way.
Kris Kosach: [00:10:27] Talk about awkward. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so all right. You mentioned Donovan, you had been with Donovan in Greece. Let's go back to you working at the, the Beatles' Apple store, the original Apple store. Tell us about the day you'd write about this in the book.
Tell us about the day that he walked in to the shop.
Jenny Boyd: [00:10:45] Yes. I was downstairs and I was behind the counter. And, uh, he walked down the stairs and there was gypsy Dave, and he had a few other friends there too. And he said, Jenny, I didn't know you worked here. And I'd met him a couple [00:11:00] of times when I'd gone round to see Patty and George maybe like, you know, maybe few months ago.
And so he said, let's, let's go into this changing room. There's just a little curtain. For the changing room. And we drew the curtain and he said, what was San Francisco like? And I told him about my spiritual experience, and he wants to know what it was like meditating. And basically he had become a seeker, a spiritual seeker himself.
So we chatted for a long time and really had a great connection. And then, uh, I think maybe the next time he came into the shop, he asked whether I would go with him. He's going to cool while we get the train to Cornwell with the photographer who is taking the photographs for his album. Hurley go Hurdy Gurdy man there we went to Cornwall and we're in the round on the seashore and, uh, you know, sort of, um, scarves and colorful things flowing from us like gypsies.
[00:12:00] And, um, next time I saw him, cause I would come with him to his manager's house for lunch. And when I got there, he told me that he'd written a song for me. So we went into it, one of the rooms, and he sat on the bed and at one end, and I sat on the other and um, and he started playing his guitar and singing Jennifer Juniper.
And it was beautiful. And at that time I was actually very shy, so I wasn't quite sure where to look because. Although I felt there was a connection between us. What you were saying in the song was, do you love her? Yes, I do, sir. And I wasn't quite sure how I felt about him or whether I was ready for a relationship or not.
It actually ended up where we were really, really great friends and we were like, we were going out, we'd come over, but it wasn't, I didn't want a full on relationship, so it never went that extra mile, so to speak.
Kris Kosach: [00:12:58] All right, so [00:13:00] the, the film that you are referencing, uh, in my opinion, I worked at MTV, in my opinion.
It is probably one of the very first music videos. Um, it is on Google. I watched it. I enjoyed it very much. I don't know if your children or grandchildren have seen it, but there I've just outed you. So, um, you are running on a YouTube. Uh, doing that. Uh, but Jennifer, Juniper of course, is that the name of the book?
So it obviously it meant something to you. Uh, and it's on urbane books. It's a wonderful book. Uh, I've enjoyed it very much. Um, you mentioned San Francisco, so let's jump back for a second. Uh, I am from the Bay area and I know what all that, that hippy world entailed. I was a baby at the time, but, uh. I, it lasted a very, very long time, but you talk in the book about it being a very idealistic period when you first landed in San Francisco in [00:14:00] the summer of love or, or closely there to the summer of love and what Haight Ashbury was like.
For those of us who just kind of recall kind of the dirty, angry hippy culture. It wasn't that in the beginning was it.
Jenny Boyd: [00:14:18] Not at all. So I arrived March, beginning of March or middle of March, and had no idea because we didn't have any kind of way of letting people know as we do now over the internet. And so when I arrived.
I was blown away because I just recently had my own sort of awakening and my needing to dig deeper and why we're here and what it's all about. And suddenly I'd arrived in this world where everybody was doing the same thing and their eye. Um. Became part of that counter culture. And my friend had her shop in [00:15:00] grant Avenue.
And so walking along there, the second day I was in San Francisco. And, um, it was just amazing to me seeing all these, these guys, they will look like native Americans and nobody wore their shoes and they had headbands on. And the women all look gorgeous in long skirts and tingling bells and you know, nothing like that was going on in London.
Um, and so I, uh, it was just, just one, just, it's that extraordinary thing about. Being in the right place at the right time, but being drawn to the right place at the right time for no reason. You don't even know. And yet it fits. Absolutely. And of course the music was fantastic there. So we'd go to the film more West than the Avalon and all those San Francisco bands and Janice Joplin singing, and everybody.
And hate. Ashley was great because it was a very [00:16:00] creative time and the kind of people that were sitting around, you know, drawing or they were painting or they were making dream dream catchers or everything was very creative. And the shops are very creative and great music coming into the streets. But, um, but so when I asked that, I wrote Patty and George and said, you
Kris Kosach: [00:16:21] have to come.
Jenny Boyd: [00:16:23] This is amazing and love it. By the time it was the summer where everybody had been told to turn on tune in a drop out by Timothy Leary, all of the cool hippies, the original ones. Had gone to Muir woods, or they'd gone to meta, or, you know, they'd kind of gone out of the main part of, um, of Haight-Ashbury.
Definitely with all its wonderful idea. And it was all these kids who'd come across from America right across America. Two dropped out and they were sort of begging and they were sort of, you know, it [00:17:00] was just a completely different attitude. And, uh, and I felt terrible and we all, I took them to Haight Ashbury and of course we'd all had a little bit of acid just cause they thought that's what you need to do to kind of connect.
And it was awful. And because, you know, it was almost as if we were all going to get mugged in the end. And, um.
Kris Kosach: [00:17:22] Because everybody recognized George,
Jenny Boyd: [00:17:32] lovely bit of grass and what was going to go Jude, she has some thing as a song, classic chord. Come on, give us a chord. And somebody's got a guitar and daughter, no, no, no, no, you, you played. So some guy played his guitar and then gave it to George and he said, okay, come on, give us some cool words. And what he did was he got onto his guitar, and when C G E.
An a and then he [00:18:00] gave it back, got up and we all thought we were going to be able to walk back along Haight-Ashbury to the limo cause the limo wouldn't refuse to drive down Haight-Ashbury and the crowd were angry. You know, that sort of hero. Had been either very far out or he duped them, you know, so they, they weren't sure and faster to get into this limo.
And I felt terrible. We got onto a, Leah Jackson got into LA and of course I had to leave all my luggage behind. And you know, it was all, the whole thing was very, um, not how I'd planned it.
Kris Kosach: [00:18:40] I love that story. It's great. Um, um, so, all right, so let's fast forward. You crisscross the pond. Too many times for me to keep track, I really started to lose track between London and LA. Um, you go back to England, you and Mick. Get married, you're only 21 right. And there was a, [00:19:00] you're still communal living with many friends, but at some point, the band, Fleetwood Mac, decides to move to LA.
And I want to talk about that period, chapter seven in particular, because this is what. Most people think of when they think of the excess of rock and roll. For me anyway, chapter seven, uh, made me want to like, it was exhausting. So many things have happened to you. It's just, it broke my heart. I needed Kleenex in chapter seven.
So let's talk a little bit about something that they called the brain damage club. What is the brain damage
Jenny Boyd: [00:19:38] club. The brain damaged club was started by, um, John male. Eric was playing with him and you know, all the, all the great guitars played with him. Then he moved to LA and he got his house up in Laurel Canyon and he called it the brain damage.
And, and so John McPhee and [00:20:00] Christmas and our friend Sandra bygone, when we moved over to LA, they moved into John male's house. Uh, I think John must've been away for a while and just everywhere there was a big bar, every single bottle of whatever alcohol you needed. And, um, and I think those places where you could watch movies and, um, it was just a, they just called it the brain damage club because you can imagine the kind of rock and roll parties that want went on in there.
And, uh, and so that's where John and Chris and then Sandra lived when we first arrived there. Where's Mick? And I had our children who were still very young. Uh, I think, uh, UC was probably one and a, or just over one. And Emilia was three. So we were having to kind of look after them. And then one night when I managed to find a babysitter and we went to go and visit John and Chris.
And then Sandra. Make an eye and we all swam in the pool and [00:21:00] started to feel very Californian. And then we started taking all our suits off, and then we were all in the nude, except for Chris. She undid her top of her bikini, but she couldn't quite let it go. So it floated along with her, you know, and then John would be running down the stop naked.
And, um, John, who was usually very. Sort of reserved. And it was, we all slept very Californian. And there was this guy there who always lived there. I think he was Brenda John Miles called Kansas. And he would walk around the pool with just his cowboy hat on and nothing else telling, showing Chris, Sandra and I how to, um, how to dive.
And that was our introduction to California.
Kris Kosach: [00:21:49] Yeah. Um, there's a lot of, there's also a lot of cocaine and alcohol in this chapter. There's a lot. Um, and, uh, but, but, but [00:22:00] what. An interesting time, especially now that you look back with a cycle, a professional, clinical, psychological, a psychology degree. You're able to look back on this period.
Do you think. The . It was a perfect storm really for all of these things to happen in this wild seventies and the indulgences of the time, but the world has changed an awful lot. Do you think that that could ever be recreated? Do you think that that time has come and gone, or do you think it's possible that that a period like that could happen again?
I
Jenny Boyd: [00:22:39] don't know. I think it was a time not to be repeated. This like the 60s. You know, that caught me. It was a particular time in history when everything came together to create that. And I don't think because the 70s without ordering LA [00:23:00] and uh, you know, you came from a lot of it came from the 60s but what was the sadness about?
What I think is that all the idealism that we had in the 60s or most of us. That all went by the, by the wayside. And suddenly it seemed all about ambition and making money and how you can be the best. And, you know, there was a lot of activity because that was still there, but there was a lot of, um, it was hardened in a way, I think.
I think it was very much, you know, having to get the record out, uh, for, uh. The studio need it needed to be finished at a certain time. And so, of course, that's how cocaine started with this. Um, need to have things done and ready. But of course, yes, they could stay up all night, but they listened to what they'd been doing.
And often they'd have to redo the whole thing again.
Kris Kosach: [00:23:56] Right, right. So it was, [00:24:00] it was really a, a functional drug usage in a way to be more than it was, uh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's, and for you though, substance was a means of coming out of your shell as well, because there were a lot of people around, a lot of parties, a lot of nudity.
Um, but, but there were a lot of people and you were quite shy. Talk to me a little bit about being alone in a crowd of many. Because you mentioned that a few times in the book, and I find that really fascinating. You certainly aren't alone. A lot of people feel that way. It just an extent. I've felt like that in the music industry.
Um, uh, just on the sidelines as a, as a broadcaster. But. It's an interesting thing. You're in the center of it all, and yet you're alone. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Jenny Boyd: [00:24:56] Yeah, because you're alone because [00:25:00] you're there because you haven't to be married to one of the main people who's there. So, yes, we all did.
It did feel like a family, cause we'd all, we were all going through the same kind of stuff, but I, I believe I was, I was very shy and introverted. But there was another part that just loved the music and love to dance and wished I could sort of really just be that person the whole time rather than this kind of introverted, spiritual seeking person.
So it almost felt as if I had two completely different parts of me that was sort of fight for each other. And, um, and that, that's why to begin with, I learned what if I start drinking. Then I can kind of come out of myself and I can actually be quite funny. And I never thought of that before. And I feel like one of the crowd, but [00:26:00] inside and at the end of the evening or when you're trying to go to sleep, you don't feel like one of the crowd.
You know, you're there with yourself. And in a way, I would feel really remorseful. That I couldn't just be myself without having to get completely out of it. But it was tricky though, and maybe I was hard on myself because everybody was drinking and taking Coke and doing, you know, I would have other times when I'd be with the children.
That home, and there'll be on the road say, and I would just have my Canam ILT and my poems to write and, and listen to classical music. And I love that. That felt more like me. And it took me a long time to actually realize about being true to yourself. What really feels like you.
Kris Kosach: [00:26:54] So perhaps these were the beginnings of you finding yourself in during this [00:27:00] period, really by being alone.
So maybe being alone was a gift.
Jenny Boyd: [00:27:03] What did was, it was painful though. It was painful situation that I was in because there was another part. Really was a bit of an extrovert and loved all of this and loved the music, you know, not getting wasted, or even a musical sound even better or dancing or, you know, it was like party party, party.
But they would always come those times where. And, and the thing is, because I wasn't with it all the time because obviously we have the children. I always had to get up early with them and be there as a mom. Um, it was different for me, so I was like a part time party.
Kris Kosach: [00:27:44] Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. I think, I think.
This is just my opinion, but I think you probably grounded everyone around you and you probably don't even know it, but I think that those little bits of [00:28:00] going to surgery and going to the countryside, um, were an escaping all of this craziness. Uh. And I'm sorry, sir, I don't mean to be opining here, but, uh, my takeaway was that, uh, that, that you grounded everyone else, you brought them back to reality, but, uh, but it didn't always turn out for you.
And with Mick, unfortunately it didn't work out. And, uh, you went on a journey and then you tried to make things work out. You actually married him twice,
Jenny Boyd: [00:28:32] which I
Kris Kosach: [00:28:33] find. Fascinating. So you escaped, you successfully escaped, and you came back. So a part of you did. Of course, you did it for the children, but you.
Is it? Am I safe to say that you missed that last style? To some extent?
Jenny Boyd: [00:28:52] No. It wasn't the lifestyle more than anything. And this was something from way back, you know, even as a child, because I had such a [00:29:00] disruptive childhood and even when they cannot do this together, before we had any children, and I remember, I think we talked about.
I think when I first found out I was pregnant, and I remember being in tears and just saying, let's never separate. Let's never get divorced. And that was my main thing. I never, never wanted to be divorced. And so it was almost as if I was obsessed with even this crazy stuff. I would keep going back for more.
And in a way, I think Mick had this feeling that we did have a connection, but it was so hard to find the person behind. Or the drugs and the alcohol and the, you know, and of course there was another side of me that was really proud of him and I'm happy that he was successful, but he was, um, you know, it was something that I just couldn't let go off.
And when I thought I'd almost say he would then come on, you know, so it was, I sort of [00:30:00] dance that we did together.
Kris Kosach: [00:30:01] Yeah, you really did. And, but let's cut to the present. He blurbed your book, Jennifer Juniper. So obviously there's still a, a friendly rapport there, and he's obviously father of your children, so you've settled into a, a peaceful spot.
Um. Clearly, which is, which is wonderful. Um, all right, so moving on, it doesn't work out again. And. You meet, uh, Ian Wallace again, you go back to a drummer. Um, uh, but it's, tell me you're on your honeymoon with Ian. And that, that didn't end too well. I won't spend too much time on this, but what fascinates me is that story of your awakening when you almost died in Hawaii.
Can you tell that story please? The ocean,
Jenny Boyd: [00:30:53] no honeymoon. And Dom would said we could stay at his house on Maui. And, [00:31:00] um, so Ian and I went along and I, in a way, I'd swapped one drama for another. It was sort of like the kind of feel to it, but, um, anyway, he decided that he wanted drugs and we didn't have any.
And so he called a couple of, um, good friends of ours. And, um. And so we all took this, um, mushroom magic, mushroom, synthetic, you know, the pill. We're sitting on the beach and suddenly, you know, we're all laughing our heads off. And I become very self conscious because people seem to be looking at us. And so I suggest that we all go out and.
Go into the ocean, go into the sea. And, uh, I'd always been a little scared at the sea ever since I was a kid. But anyway, put on the, you know, everyone puts on their masters, snorkel and starts swimming out way out to sea. And, um, I put on my mask, but I did, but I dropped my snorkel and so what, I'm out trying to catch up with [00:32:00] them and I'm pretty far out.
I thought to get, um, mesmerized. By all the wonderful things that are going on underneath the sea and the waves and all the different little fishes and stuff. And, uh, then I think I can breathe on the whole tap because I am so out of my mind. I don't know what I'm doing or where I am and I'm way out at sea and I put my head up anymore cause I think I can't anymore.
Um, I, I know I can breathe under water and I think I'm DRI breathing on the water and then I'm choking and coughing and you know, and all my fear of the sea comes up from childhood and I'm flailing. And then when I kind of get myself back together again. I think I've got to, I've got to get back to the shore before this happens again.
So I was aware enough to have a sort of new seed moment knowing I was going to get, you know, have another wave of being out of it. And I do get back to the shore and I'm [00:33:00] shivering because I realized how close that was. And it was after that. And I remember I was chatting with Bonnie Raitt and she was talking about these things, whether it was rescue remedy or one of those, um, um, alternative, uh, things that she was taking.
And I remembered I always had a fascination with alternative health homeopathy and ever since I could remember. But at the same time, it made me realize I was ready to give back to life. It was as if I'd been given another chance, a wake up call, basically, and I did. And that was my staff going to college.
And you know.
Kris Kosach: [00:33:43] Chills. All right, so I have a series of questions to ask you that I've, I've been accumulating questions and looking and searching for someone exactly like you for years to answer some of these questions for me. The psychology of a rock star, it is [00:34:00] a fascinating subject. It is the stuff of dissertations.
It was your dissertation when you got your PhD. But in a nutshell, can you answer some of these questions for me? You know. We talk about emotions. You talk in the book. Mick wasn't terribly a motive. George Harrison has said in interviews that he felt responsible for losing Patty. Do you think that music, and you wrote an entire book and then republished it about musicians and creativity.
Um, do you believe that musicians. Emote through their music and that's why perhaps their relationships don't always work out because they, they communicate in an entirely different way than the rest of the world might.
Jenny Boyd: [00:34:44] Yes, I do. I think music has its own language. And, um, you know, that we can't come in on.
So when I was talking about us sitting in India, you know, on the roof of the bungalow with the, with the Beatles, it's like, you can't come in on that [00:35:00] because they have the language and it's more than just verbally. It's, it's the sounds that they're making. And I think that, um. That's, I always felt like that with fleet, with Mac, is that you could never get in there because their connection was a different language that they spoke
Kris Kosach: [00:35:22] okay. Interesting. Okay. Um, so when you got your PhD, were you married to your current husband,
Jenny Boyd: [00:35:31] Ian Wallace? When I got my PhD, that was my, you know, uh. I was always thought, well, yes, if you are with husband, you must be going out on the road with him. And he fell out with all these great musicians, and then actually this, when I decided to go to college, that was such a big step for me because it was the first time I had done something for myself.
And to actually say, no, sorry, I can't go on the road. I've got a class today, or I've got three classes today. [00:36:00] It was really, really tough. I can't tell you, but once I started and it was almost like, gosh, I have a right. I have a right to do, I want to do for myself, and that was so big.
Kris Kosach: [00:36:14] It's liberating.
Jenny Boyd: [00:36:15] It's
Kris Kosach: [00:36:16] liberating.
You had your own schedule.
Jenny Boyd: [00:36:17] Yeah.
Kris Kosach: [00:36:19] Yeah. Okay. Interesting. And so you continued on this journey. And became an addiction specialist to you at some point go, uh, to the Himalayas and you meet your current husband, literally on a path, on a personal journey. You met, you met your husband. I think that that's beautiful.
Personally. Um, but you, you come back and you begin am I correct in saying that's when you begin working at Tucson, uh, Sierra Tucson? After that,
Jenny Boyd: [00:36:52] I actually started working on the last year I was in LA, so I'd finish my. Both my [00:37:00] book would come out, Simon choose to publish that one. And I did, um, I, uh, then to where I could get a job now.
And so a friend of mine said, well, they're looking for marketing people at Sierra Tucson, but you've got to have a master's level degree. And I did then. And so that's how I went there and I got the job. And I had to go through everything that somebody who needs to go there for some kind of addiction has to go through.
So I had to go through all the different groups to try that out. The family program, you know, obviously over a period of like a few days. And, um, and it was really interesting and I'd go to all the lectures. And so, because I was starting to question my own self and was I an alcoholic, um, it was wonderful for me because I really then.
Found out an awful lot about alcoholism, but I also found out about codependency. You know, when you need to have the approval of other people so that you can [00:38:00] feel okay about yourself, you know? So there was a lot I learned about that, but that was an, um, a year before I went to England. And that's how I went to England because I asked them if I could actually take this program to England because I wanted to share it with my home country.
Uh, what I had learned. From going and being part of
Kris Kosach: [00:38:21] Tucson. Yes, yes and no. The stoke nature of British culture would say, keep it all in. Don't share it. So it was a wild idea for you to take that to London
Jenny Boyd: [00:38:32] in America at that time. We're talking sort of 20 something years ago now. I found that. You know, I got into the therapy world and they just seem much more dynamic than what was going on in England.
And especially in the treatment centers. It was very old fashioned. And they would come from the mindset of we've done it like this all our lives. Why should we change? So what I brought, and then I went to, and then I started working for Cottonwood. They Tucson, [00:39:00] um, and so for many, many years. And so I would bring.
The family program over to England and the therapist server and the psychiatrist over to talk to the psychiatrist in England. So I was, I kind of wanted what they'd got in the States, what they'd got in Arizona in particular, to come to England and show these people. Uh, at the different treatment centers, they don't have to be in competition with each other.
Everybody can be there for each other. And nobody had thought like that before. So it was, it was very, it was, it was great. You know, it really worked very
Kris Kosach: [00:39:34] well. Yeah. This wonderful. Um, there's so much, I know we're running out of time. So many more questions for you. Um, okay. Uh, all these musicians that you've been around all your life from the Beatles and Fleetwood Mac, uh, King Crimson, uh, Eric Clapton, all this music, Monterey pop, you were there.
What's your [00:40:00] favorite type of music? What do you like?
Jenny Boyd: [00:40:03] Ooh, I love, I love, so I love blues. I love every day here because they're on lockdown. Obviously. I make sure I dance every day, just me and the music there, whatever songs I can dance to. Um, I. I love, I mean to say I love all music is not true. Cause I might come across something and think, Ooh, that doesn't move me.
I guess it's what moves me, whether it's really, I mean, Nina Simone singing, I put a spell on you just makes me want to wheat, you know, or just, uh, or that makes you want to dance that, um, this just has something about it. Something
Kris Kosach: [00:40:46] special. Yes. Yeah. I'm giggling because my sister just won a bet. She said she's going to say Motown and anything she can dance to.
That's what my sisters, so she won. Um, but [00:41:00] then again, it wasn't a bad cause. I agree. Um, okay. Uh, and then, um. Uh, looking back on this, how many of these people have you kept in touch? Unfortunately, plenty of them are now gone. Uh, but how many of them have you kept in touch with and with time changing, have they mellowed as well?
Jenny Boyd: [00:41:21] Well, obviously, as we know, I'm in touch with Mick. You know, I'm talking to him like two, three days ago, and he lives on his Island, on his, in, on Maui, in Hawaiian islands. And, um, so I'm in touch with him. I'm in touch with Christine McVie, you know, sometimes. Um, and, um, let's see. And other musicians, um, you know, just friend musicians, but only because they're friends.
Not necessarily the musicians.
Kris Kosach: [00:41:53] Yes, yes. Yeah.
Jenny Boyd: [00:41:57] Back when they were in Paris or in London recently, [00:42:00] the one time where they're playing in Paris and I was standing on the side of the stage and it was so wonderful. It was when, you know, Lindsey was in the band and this overwhelming feeling of love was just, Oh, do you know, I've known these guys for so many years and we've all been through so much together.
And, um, it was, it's obviously just very, very special, but I'm not in touch in touch, you know, on a regular basis with other musicians, particularly.
Kris Kosach: [00:42:29] Okay. All right. Um, uh, we don't have time to get into your father, but suffice it to say it was not a, that's another hour. Right. Um, but suffice it to say it was a nod.
Great. Um. And you again come full circle with all of that. So as a parent yourself, I wanted to ask, uh, it sounds like you have a wonderful [00:43:00] relationship with your daughter, with both of your daughters, but they are doctors, they are girls. And having grown up around this scene, did they ever, there comes a time.
In any young person's life when they start to question their parents and their parents' choices, they see their parents as a human being and not as this authority figure. And I'm wondering if your daughters, knowing what they know about, um, your openness with, with, uh, Coke and the infidelity that was flying around and all the wild parties, did they ever question you on your choices?
And if so, what did you tell them? My
Jenny Boyd: [00:43:36] choices. How I lived my life. Yes. Yes. Since they've been grown up. Not, not really, because they, I think, because, you know, obviously I wasn't, I tried very hard not to let them know about, um, the, the, I'd wait till they had gone to bed and, you know, sort of, we'd have our party time then, but, um, but obviously there is [00:44:00] on some.
Levels and effect, but they, they just think of it as, that was that time. You know, they, they have great friends and their parents are probably my age and sort of had been part of that world as well. And it's like, Oh, you know, our moms. Um, so it's not, it's more than that. You know, they're very. Into their own words and their own life, but they're really supportive.
You know what's been amazing for me with both books and everything. Me going back to school and you know, the college when I did, they've always been incredibly supportive and, um, about anything I do. So I guess, um, yes. Have a wonderful relationship. And with my grandchildren too, just a wonderful.
Kris Kosach: [00:44:49] Yes. I wanted to ask about them.
Uh, is he and Wolf, they're both young adults. They appear to be anyway in the picture in the book. Um, what if they came to you and said, [00:45:00] I, I want to be musician, or I'm, I'm dating a musician. What's your advice to them?
Jenny Boyd: [00:45:05] Well, I'll say easy, dude. He's, he's now 14 to be 15 in July. I would say, um, just make sure, cause actually she's a musician, she's, he's playing
with her songs, with her friends and stuff. And I would say, you know, just have something that is yours. Don't give it up so that you can still be with whoever it is. But always make sure that you stay true to what it is you, what your passion is.
Kris Kosach: [00:45:36] In other words, just be yourself.
Jenny Boyd: [00:45:38] Be yourself. Yeah.